Well done and thank you for such a brilliant site! It certainly brings back memories...
Seeing as it is something of a trend here, I was wondering if anyone could help with Hellfire as I'm stuck facing the Trinitour. I've got all the items you need to fight him but he then goes on to say they need powering up. I've tried using the lamp and the multicoloured orb and just end up dying. Which item do you have to use?
Phil Sadler Sat Jul 16 21:02:19 2005
Trinotour: powering up
SPOILER
You need the gold chalice but, I must warn you, that there's still one more thing you must do after using it and facing him, otherwise he'll be far too strong.
END SPOILER
daramouss Wed Jul 20 12:01:08 2005
Whew! Finally completed Hellfire! Thank for the info and the excellent gamebook Phil. Time to try Riders of the Storm...
Holden Wed Nov 9 22:35:09 2005
Hey you guys,
I'm still getting only to the acid gorge in Hellfire. I believe someone told me what to do about kit a lont time ago. YOu need an item of some sort. Wherebaouts do you find that item?
Holden
Dark Thu Nov 10 03:04:58 2005
Ooopse, I wen ways through Hellfire and never found an Acid gorge. But one Item I've currently found is a gold scepter with the word "Acid" on it, I got it from
SPOILER
A giant statue with dragon heads through the west exit near the lake. If you've already found this and tried it at the gorge I'm sorry, but when you said "Acid" it popped into my head.
END SPOILER
Gamebook Fanatic Thu Nov 10 12:31:59 2005
I believe it was Mr Sadler himself who gave the answer the last time. Anyway the item you need is:
SPOILER
a Reaveal Invisible Spell.
END SPOILER
It is, as Phil said, very well hidden. You need two other spells to find it. They are:
SPOILER
a Time spell and an Open Door Spell. The Time spells returns you to the entrance, where you must use the Open Door Spell to open a door which cannot be accessed otherwise.
END SPOILER
Gamebook Fanatic Thu Nov 10 12:38:58 2005
Oh, and I found the 'Acid' Sceptre too. I fell for the trap the first time I played Hellfire, and used it on the acid gorge. It DOES have a result, but not the kind you want.
Dark Sat Nov 12 09:24:19 2005
Hell fire is now deffinately getting upon my wick! I've played through the game three times, and each time I get to a wall of green hellfire which persistently turns red and roasts me to a crisp! I'm afraid I stil haven't found the Acid gorge myself --- or either of the spells you mentioned, your obviously getting on much better than I am.
If anyone knows how to get past that damn wall of fire please let me know.
Phil Sadler Sat Nov 12 12:08:30 2005
(Hellfire)
If anyone knows how to get past that damn wall of fire please let me know.
SPOILER
You must attack and kill the old women at the start, then take the unidentified spell she has and get the women in the library to identify it for you. This will then become the Dispell Hellfire spell
END SPOILER
Gemebook Fanatic Sat Nov 12 12:10:02 2005
The spell you need to get past the hellfire is actually found right at the very beginning of the book. It took me a really loing time to find, too. It's tricky to find because you have to do something which is usually considered 'unheroic'. (In fact, you even suffer a Stat penalty for this action)
SPOILER
At the beginning of the book, turning left brings you to a female prisoner, who begs you to heal her. You must kill her instead (and lose a LUCK for it, one of the things I don't like about this particular adventure) so that you can get a scroll of unidentified spell. Later you would meet someone who would asked you if you have an unidentified spell. Once she identified it for you, you would be able to use it to dispel the hellfire.
END SPOILER
In response to "one of the things I don't like..." in your spoiler :
SPOILER
I think this is an important part of the plot though. Phil sets up "Good" and "Evil" (or "Chaos" as he sometimes calls it) as real opposing forces in conflict, and constantly emphasises that you are "Good". Yet in order to win you must make choices that are presumably contrary to your nature and pick up various cursed artefacts. The nature of the ending is perhaps a recognition of the fact that your success is necessarily tainted.
END SPOILER
Gamebook Fanatic Sat Nov 12 12:11:06 2005
Looks like the author beat me to it this time. :D
Gamebook Fanatic Sat Nov 12 16:12:21 2005
Good point, and I do agree with you about the plot. What I meant I didn't like was about the LUCK loss, not the 'unheroic' choice. The reader constantly gets punished for picking up items that are vital to completing the game, which makes the game far too difficult. If the Hero gets creamed because he walked into a trap, or carelessly alerted a guard, fair enough. What I didn't like was how he made the 'right' choices (not morally, but right for game completion), but have to die anyway because his Stats aren't high enough to take all those drains. I understand the theory about the Hero being forced to make questionable choices to gain victory. My objections were never aimed at the plot, or having to roleplay an 'unheroic' guy. I'd be perfectly happy with it if I were to read it as a novel. I just think that as a gamebook it becomes excessively difficult, that's all. I don't actually object to difficulty per se, in fact I applaud and admire the intricate way Phil hid the spell required to pass the acid gorge. I don't like the stat-draining items because it makes victory almost impossible if you don't roll a high score for all three Stats, at least from my experience (you may start with an average Skill of 9, have it drained down to 6, only to run into a Sk 10 monster and get squashed). The plot may make the book an interesting read, but a frustrating game to play. I guess that's one difficulty that gamebook writers may face: trying to balance the 'game' and the 'book' aspects.
This post is in reponse to the site admin, btw. :)
Yes, Hellfire is difficult. And as Phil has pointed out before, my adaptation has made it even more difficult. To me this is no bad thing - some games are harder than others, but Hellfire is there for those who like a tougher challenge.
There is a fundamental weakness in the Fighting Fantasy system, the enormous difference between a SKILL 7 and a SKILL 12 character. Any gamebook writer is faced with the problem of how to make it possible for a weaker character yet not too easy if you roll high at the beginning. The result is usually an uneasy compromise where you won't stand much chance unless you have SKILL 10 or higher. Of course, with Hellfire even a SKILL of 12 doesn't guarantee victory (although the odds are in your favour).
A FF gamebook that is possible to complete with a SKILL of 7 is very rare. Apparently Citadel Of Chaos could be, but I don't know of any others. On this site, I would say only House Of Horror is in this category. The line that went "no matter how weak on initial dice rolls ... should be able to get through easily" was always a lie.
Personally, if I wrote one I would probably dodge the issue and have my own way of generating the stats like Andrew Wright and Hugh Eldred-Grigg have done.
The Nameless One Sun Nov 13 01:48:11 2005
Dark, whi,e you try Hellfire (I honestly have not given it a go yet) I suggest you play midnight deep and outsider. They are boyh brilliant as games get.
dark Sun Nov 13 04:47:23 2005
Yep Nameless I'll give it a try, I did look at the start but I've been very busy with the final essay of my Ma in philosophy, and have only taken a few seconds out to play gamebooks. I'm now finished though, so have plenty of time for gamebooks.
Well, that was cunningly hidden!
SPOILER
Sinse the dispell illusion scrolls the wounded woman gives you were of use against a couple of monsters such as the nightstalker, I always assumed I'd made the right choice there.
END SPOILER
As to Hellfire in general, I'm impressed. I worried slightly at the beginning because of the rather swift way the game landed me into a dungeon (this seemed a litle contrived to me), but my fears of standardness were soon allayed by some of the truly fiendish puzles, and above all, the simply ghoolish writing style! There's atmosphere oozing from every inch of Hellfire, and some segments
SPOILER
the passage describing the test of endurance through the elephant door)
END SPOILER
, actually seriously freaked me out ---- an impressive feat, sinse I'm reading through the books with my speech synthesisor, which is hardly the most effective reader.
all in all a great job Mr. Sadler, though I do wish someone'd warned me about the difficulty before I started. ---- maybe a difficulty rating could go on the site somewhere, Gbf?
I've put the spoilers where I'm guessing you meant to put them.
I will reflect on the idea of a difficulty rating. But until I actually do anything, see below where I've listed the gamebooks in approximate order of difficulty, easiest first.
Bad Moon Rising The Black Lobster Impudent Peasant Bodies In The Docks Curse Of The Yeti The Trial Of Allibor's Tomb Lair Of The Troglodytes Outsider House Of Horror Riders Of The Storm Rebels Of The Dark Chasms Midnight Deep Hellfire
Gamebook Fanatic Sun Nov 13 07:12:33 2005
Hey, Dark, if you are trying to post something as a spoiler, you need to insert your message between the two bracketed
SPOILER
s, (after deleting the 'spoiler text here' message).
END SPOILER
Phil Sadler Sun Nov 13 11:55:23 2005
Hello again everybody and thanks for giving us all something to read and think about!
I have read with particular interest about the difficulties of Hellfire that have been mentioned quite frequently and must admit that have really given me food for thought.
I guess the most glaring 'difficulty' is the one about the old women (don't read these spoilers unless you are stuck!):
SPOILER
It's true that the old women at the start holds a secret item that you only get if you kill her and I guess that's a thing that most heroes wouldn't do! However, why should it be that everyone you meet is either an instant trusted friend or a sworn enemy that you have to fight? Surely, even in real life, you'd meet someone (sooner or later) that just blatently lied to you and perhaps even double-crossed you? After all, don't forget that the place the adventure takes place is the Trinitour's dungeon and whose to say there wouldn't be those who were secretly loyal to him?
END SPOILER
If I were to fix the above situation then I guess I would do something like this:
SPOILER
If you help the old women then she just gives you one item and no spells. Now, perhaps the item then becomes an option to use at the wall of hellfire? Then should you try and use it, you will be killed by the fire, thus leading you to realise that the old women lied to you and should have been killed after all?
END SPOILER
There are certainly other situations which I suppose could be improved too, one of which is to do with the various weapons and armour (more major spoilers follow; read them if stuck):
SPOILER
Those who have completed the book or at least come close, will have long since realised that, to survive, you should be picking up all the 'wrong' weapons and armour. Now I'll be the first to admit that this is a very unusual thing to be expected to do, but why would you expect the Trinitour to do otherwise? After all, he is a demon and doesn't exactly want your quest to be an easy one. All readers of the book, or at least those who know it quite well, may have realised that he doesn't always tell you the truth and, indeed, sometimes mocks you and even trys to trick you on occasion!
END SPOILER
If I were to try and fix the above 'situation' then I suppose I could do something which ties in with yet another situation that I was never fully happy about (the end of the book), and do the folowing:
SPOILER
I always thought that, towards the end of the book, things became too difficult, or even much too difficult and I honestly meant to do something about it. Trouble was, I had become rather dissaluioned with the whole thing by that point and just wanted to call it a day and get the blasted thing out onto the Internet! Anyway, had I a second chance and, especially considering the 'weapons and armour' difficulties, I would change the ending thus. Instead of the Trinitour killing you for each weapon or amour you lack, I would perhaps allow a test of luck for each item missed and therefore at least a chance of continuing. Then at least this would let the reader start to have a very good idea about what sort of weapons he should have been collecting all along.
END SPOILER
Speaking of the end of the book, there is another situation that I always knew was just a bit too cruel (more spoilers about end of book):
SPOILER
Regarding the 'final door' and the fact that each wrong decision will kill you: I now consider this 'over the top' and simply too tough a price to pay for the poor reader who had struggled this far. Now, instead of that, I would simply have the reader wounded for each wrong choice, but still able to try others (or at least a couple) before he either hit upon the solution or died after all.
END SPOILER
There are probably other tough breaks in the book, but I think I've discussed the main ones and maybe I'll try and change them one day soon...
Thanks for the posts everyone!
dark Mon Nov 14 10:48:33 2005
Sorry about my ineptitude with Spoilers Gbf, other forums where I've posted have worked slightly differently, I'll remember for next time. Thanks for fixing my mistake.
Well, I think I'll give some of the easier books a try before I start on Hellfire again, i've finished Impudent Peasant and the Black Lobster, so I'll probably move on to the next book.
As reguards double crosses and such, I do love a bit of charactor interaction in these things, and it was the fact that so many standard things were turned around in Hellfire that really interested me. I think as Mr. Sadler's said, the only thing Hellfire lacks at the moment is some information about where you went wrong when you die. The book ishugely complex, and to have to explore every single alternative every single time you meet a sticky end can git a bit annoying, a learning system would still require patience from the reader and a number of runs through the book, but would also mean that they'll complete it eventually.
At some point I might myself try writing a Gamebook for the net, and all this is very useful information to know.
Holden Thu Mar 16 08:06:41 2006
I've been gone for a while. Gone so long, in fact, that I've had time to get a laptop while I've been gone. Anyway, I'm still trying to beat hellfire. Would someone just tell me, I've exausted all possibilities, the answer to the woman's riddle after the giant mushroom cave? It seems every time I enter a sensible answer, I fail in my mission. What's going on?
Gamebook Fanatic Thu Mar 16 10:33:03 2006
Solution to riddle:
SPOILER
Soul
END SPOILER
James Sat Apr 8 05:05:10 2006
Argh! In Hellfire, how do you get past the Hellfire? I've tried every option available, I've redone the dungeon taking different choices and picking up different items...and I still can't get past it. No matter what I do I end up dead. :|